tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2293319073550947163.post3599712302301263847..comments2024-03-16T17:43:25.784-04:00Comments on DanielMaidman: There is Nothing You Can Offer EpictetusDanielhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15597234920324948705noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2293319073550947163.post-34629474705259251772012-10-21T15:05:11.158-04:002012-10-21T15:05:11.158-04:00I'm afraid there is a real problem with Epicte...I'm afraid there is a real problem with Epictetus' philosophy, given that he accepted the Stoic doctrine of fate, viz., that everything is fated (which, however, does not mean necessitated, at any rate as these things were defined by the greatest Stoic, Chrysippus). The problem is this: roughly speaking, the Stoics argued that all events are fated, fate being the same as god, the divine principle of reason, and providence. That is, everything is fated for the good. Some of these fated events are also actions, performed by particular individuals, who thereby become part of the chain or web of fate. Since a given event is fated, it is going to happen whether we like it or not, or, the Stoics would put it, where the event is also an action of yours, whether you assent to it or not. But if the same thing can happen either with or without your assent, your assent cannot be necessary for its occurrence. Therefore: Either you can control your assents, but in some cases, at least, this control will have no effect on actual events, which is not very comforting, and will not lead to "positive feedback" about the value of controlling one's assents (what't the point?). It may also contradict the doctrine of fate, if assents count as events or if they are necessary for certain events to occur (and as they are fated to occur, your assent will be given to them, whether you like it or not). But (the other alternative) if you cannot control your assents, since they are needed for certain events to occur, wherever those events are (also) your actions, and all this sermonising about inner freedom is so much guff. The problem repeats itself with regard to "appearances", mental states of awareness to which assent is or is not given, as being true or false/unclear. If these are fated, I am going to have them whether I like them or not, and, given that fate needs me to assent (or not), I am going to assent to them (or not), whether I like it or not; or these appearances are not fated, in which case not everything is fated.<br /><br />In short, Epictetus can't take refuge in his inner freedom if fate knows no boundary between inside and outside or if his choices are not practically relevant. But if things are not all fated, and fated for the good, resignation doesn't look so attractive. <br /><br />(I realise this is a bit technical, but I think one should see ancient thinkers in their own contexts, and evaluate their ideas as wholes. Some subtle distinctions will have to be made between necessary and fated things, etc., plus careful definitions of all the modal concepts, if there is to be any hope of saving his view, and I am not sure Epictetus is up to that, even if it can be done.)<br />CatLAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2293319073550947163.post-85675851846093103742010-11-25T22:40:30.331-05:002010-11-25T22:40:30.331-05:00What a wonderful poem! Thank you for sharing that ...What a wonderful poem! Thank you for sharing that - it's amazing how many poems have a line or two that you've heard before, and never thought to wonder where it came from. Amazing and a frequent occurrence for me, anyway. Perhaps not surprising, I hardly ever read poetry. Maybe I oughta.<br /><br />I'm starting to think that you don't actually have to read Epictetus to cook up an Epictetan outlook. It just makes a lot of sense, especially when things suck, as they have for most of history. Epictetus isn't even the only classical philosopher with these sorts of ideas. Epicurus, who's up there with Machiavelli with guys whose names have gotten linked to stuff they didn't stand for, has a fairly similar outlook. Not so much, "Stuff your fat face," as "Appreciate food when you're lucky enough to get some."Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15597234920324948705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2293319073550947163.post-28837716491317552922010-11-24T19:41:54.104-05:002010-11-24T19:41:54.104-05:00Great post. Now I know where Max Ehrmann got some ...Great post. Now I know where Max Ehrmann got some of his inspiration:<br /><br />Desiderata<br /><br />Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, <br />and remember what peace there may be in silence. <br /><br />As far as possible, without surrender, <br />be on good terms with all persons. <br />Speak your truth quietly and clearly; <br />and listen to others, <br />even to the dull and the ignorant; <br />they too have their story. <br />Avoid loud and aggressive persons; <br />they are vexatious to the spirit. <br /><br />If you compare yourself with others, <br />you may become vain or bitter, <br />for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. <br />Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. <br />Keep interested in your own career, however humble; <br />it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. <br /><br />Exercise caution in your business affairs, <br />for the world is full of trickery. <br />But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; <br />many persons strive for high ideals, <br />and everywhere life is full of heroism. <br />Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. <br />Neither be cynical about love, <br />for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, <br />it is as perennial as the grass. <br /><br />Take kindly the counsel of the years, <br />gracefully surrendering the things of youth. <br />Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. <br />But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. <br />Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. <br /><br />Beyond a wholesome discipline, <br />be gentle with yourself. <br />You are a child of the universe <br />no less than the trees and the stars; <br />you have a right to be here. <br />And whether or not it is clear to you, <br />no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. <br /><br />Therefore be at peace with God, <br />whatever you conceive Him to be. <br />And whatever your labors and aspirations, <br />in the noisy confusion of life, <br />keep peace in your soul. <br /><br /><br />With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, <br />it is still a beautiful world. <br />Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.WCPE- The Classical Stationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15274878498175810783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2293319073550947163.post-72277499966741006102010-11-23T11:40:10.401-05:002010-11-23T11:40:10.401-05:00Thank you, Fred. Thanks for saying so.
There was ...Thank you, Fred. Thanks for saying so.<br /><br />There was one thing I regretted not being able to include in the post, and my mom has added another. Briefer and more poetic presentations of the same idea. So I'll just put them here.<br /><br />First, courtesy of my mom, a poem that meant a lot to Nelson Mandela:<br /><br />Invictus<br />William Ernest Henley<br /><br />Out of the night that covers me, <br />Black as the Pit from pole to pole, <br />I thank whatever gods may be <br />For my unconquerable soul. <br /><br />In the fell clutch of circumstance <br />I have not winced nor cried aloud. <br />Under the bludgeonings of chance <br />My head is bloody, but unbowed. <br /><br />Beyond this place of wrath and tears <br />Looms but the Horror of the shade, <br />And yet the menace of the years <br />Finds, and shall find, me unafraid. <br /><br />It matters not how strait the gate, <br />How charged with punishments the scroll. <br />I am the master of my fate: <br />I am the captain of my soul.<br /><br />And second, a paragraph from chapter 7 of Moby Dick. Ishmael is in a Nantucket church, contemplating the memorials to sailors:<br /><br />It needs scarcely to be told, with what feelings, on the eve of a Nantucket voyage, I regarded those marble tablets, and by the murky light of that darkened, doleful day read the fate of the whalemen who had gone before me. Yes, Ishmael, the same fate may be thine. But somehow I grew merry again. Delightful inducements to embark, fine chance for promotion, it seems- aye, a stove boat will make me an immortal by brevet. Yes, there is death in this business of whaling- a speechlessly quick chaotic bundling of a man into Eternity. But what then? Methinks we have hugely mistaken this matter of Life and Death. Methinks that what they call my shadow here on earth is my true substance. Methinks that in looking at things spiritual, we are too much like oysters observing the sun through the water, and thinking that thick water the thinnest of air. Methinks my body is but the lees of my better being. In fact take my body who will, take it I say, it is not me. And therefore three cheers for Nantucket; and come a stove boat and stove body when they will, for stave my soul, Jove himself cannot.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15597234920324948705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2293319073550947163.post-1715056667211894732010-11-23T01:15:50.552-05:002010-11-23T01:15:50.552-05:00Well said, and wise.Well said, and wise.Fredhttp://fredhatt.com/blognoreply@blogger.com